(;
GM[1]FF[4]VW[]AP[Many Faces of Go:11.0]
SZ[19]
HA[0]
ST[0]
PB[HBotSVN]
PW[AyaMC2]
DT[2008-07-06]
PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]
KM[7.5]
TM[2580]
RU[Chinese]
RE[W+Resign]
WR[6k]
C[HBotSVN [-\]: GTP Engine for HBotSVN (black): HouseBot version \
HouseBot 0.70 (r792)
AyaMC2 [6k\]: GTP Engine for AyaMC2 (white): Aya version 6.42a \
: If you pass, AyaMC will pass. When AyaMC does not, please remove \
all dead stones.]
CA[UTF-8];B[hj]BL[2552.067];W[hk]WL[2570.48];B[hd]BL[2524.098];W[ie]WL[2560.997];B[ek]BL[2496.416];W[gj]WL[2524.485];B[ld]BL[2469.008];W[ij]WL[2487.993]
;B[qn]BL[2441.697];W[qo]WL[2452.506];B[ll]BL[2414.802];W[hi]WL[2417.011];B[dc]BL[2388.211];W[cc]WL[2382.54];B[ii]BL[2361.721];W[pn]WL[2349.077];B[mh]BL[2335.548];W[dd]WL[2315.599]
;B[ne]BL[2309.544];W[qm]WL[2283.114];B[rn]BL[2283.8];W[om]WL[2250.594];B[cq]BL[2258.198];W[ec]WL[2219.085];B[bm]BL[2232.759];W[ji]WL[2187.587];B[jd]BL[2207.724];W[id]WL[2157.086]
;B[po]BL[2182.86];W[pp]WL[2128.423];B[oo]BL[2158.065];W[qp]WL[2105.571];B[ic]BL[2133.177];W[db]WL[2076.09];B[fn]BL[2108.967];W[ih]WL[2046.627];B[im]BL[2084.813];W[hm]WL[2018.158]
;B[qf]
C[tmc [-\]: I'm afraid all those ponukkis will be lucky]
BL[2061.136];W[gn]
C[jhouse [3k\]: huh?]
WL[1989.676];B[gb]BL[2037.544];W[fo]WL[1962.207];B[op]BL[2014.286];W[oq]WL[1934.746];B[pm]
C[tmc [-\]: There is a proverb that a ponnuki is lucky.]
BL[1990.931];W[pl]WL[1920.381];B[rm]
C[jhouse [3k\]: having a strong bot is lucky too ;)]
BL[1968.126];W[rl]
C[tmc [-\]: I've noticed that :)]
WL[1898.107]
;B[on]BL[1945.318];W[pm]WL[1883.464];B[nm]BL[1922.718];W[nl]WL[1858.001];B[fm]BL[1900.343];W[mm]WL[1841.798];B[il]BL[1877.75];W[hl]WL[1819.918];B[kc]BL[1855.632];W[ci]WL[1795.432]
;B[pi]BL[1833.845];W[ck]WL[1770.951];B[rk]BL[1812.238];W[np]WL[1751.774];B[pk]BL[1790.729];W[ni]WL[1728.301];B[ol]BL[1769.276];W[ok]WL[1713.864];B[lp]BL[1746.776];W[jq]WL[1690.364]
;B[nn]BL[1726.009];W[mn]WL[1677.46];B[qk]BL[1705.251];W[nh]
C[jhouse [3k\]: HouseBot thinks it has 29% chance of winning]
WL[1654.967];B[ql]BL[1684.672];W[no]WL[1640.53];B[qg]
C[jhouse [3k\]: Now down to 20%]
BL[1664.366];W[qc]WL[1618.024];B[dk]BL[1644.199];W[cl]WL[1596.551]
;B[go]BL[1624.153];W[ho]WL[1575.047];B[eo]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: Hi, Aya thinks 93% for white.]
BL[1604.096];W[fp]WL[1553.56];B[cj]BL[1584.386];W[bj]WL[1533.066];B[dj]
C[jhouse [3k\]: I'm not surprised to see Aya winning.  It's a strong \
bot]
BL[1564.857];W[cm]WL[1512.578];B[ee]
C[tmc [-\]: I guess there is no way to kill R17]
BL[1545.593];W[bn]WL[1492.108]
;B[ep]BL[1526.417];W[fq]WL[1472.643];B[cg]
C[jhouse [3k\]: I'd have difficulty killing it.  It's probably more \
important to save the lower left than keep the upper right]
BL[1507.339];W[ch]WL[1453.144];B[fl]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: Aya thinks R17 stone will live 65%.]
BL[1488.409];W[dg]WL[1433.652];B[gp]
C[jhouse [3k\]: that's a cool stat.  I don't have statistics like \
that]
BL[1469.507];W[gq]WL[1414.147];B[dh]BL[1450.796];W[df]WL[1395.686]
;B[hp]BL[1432.318];W[ip]WL[1378.039];B[hn]BL[1414.072];W[in]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: I just count MC playout last position. How \
many times which color survive. This is very useful when playout \
is wrong.]
WL[1360.091];B[er]BL[1395.936];W[fk]WL[1342.593];B[hq]BL[1378.119];W[hr]WL[1330.364];B[di]BL[1360.354];W[fd]WL[1312.862]
;B[bi]BL[1342.795];W[bh]WL[1301.157];B[iq]
C[jhouse [3k\]: some strong bots have also used those numbers to \
drive playouts or at least top level move selection]
BL[1325.292];W[gm]WL[1284.659];B[ir]BL[1307.964];W[jr]WL[1272.402];B[is]BL[1290.837];W[js]WL[1255.909];B[bg]BL[1273.809];W[ah]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: that is good idea! i will try it.
jhouse [3k\]: :)]
WL[1239.423]
;B[ag]BL[1256.975];W[ai]WL[1224.681];B[aj]
C[jhouse [3k\]: fatman on cgos uses it to drive playouts along with \
a few other basic things]
BL[1240.36];W[ak]WL[1216.239];B[bk]
C[jhouse [3k\]: crazystone uses it for probabilities for in-tree \
move selection]
BL[1223.854];W[dq]WL[1200.776];B[mf]BL[1207.506];W[ro]WL[1185.296];B[io]BL[1191.318];W[hs]WL[1169.798]
;B[de]BL[1175.258];W[eg]WL[1155.308];B[bl]BL[1159.238];W[mi]WL[1140.766];B[cn]BL[1143.283];W[al]WL[1126.285];B[am]BL[1127.696];W[an]WL[1111.794];B[fr]BL[1112.268];W[oj]WL[1097.33]
;B[bq]BL[1096.943];W[cf]WL[1083.796];B[be]BL[1081.801];W[ff]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: in playout, and in tree, there is many way \
to use playout...]
WL[1070.313];B[en]BL[1066.779];W[gr]
C[jhouse [3k\]: that's true :)]
WL[1056.867];B[bb]BL[1051.888];W[fe]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: we have too many things to try :-)]
WL[1043.351];B[fh]
C[jhouse [3k\]: yes!]
BL[1037.218];W[pj]WL[1029.896]
;B[oc]BL[1022.491];W[ke]
C[jhouse [3k\]: down to 3% to win now]
WL[1017.437];B[jg]BL[1008.079];W[if]WL[1004.973];B[sl]BL[993.52];W[he]WL[992.467];B[le]BL[979.4];W[pb]WL[979.997];B[rd]
C[jhouse [3k\]: Major items on my todo list are ELO move ratings, \
heavy playouts, and replaying UCT]
BL[965.181];W[co]
C[jhouse [3k\]: replacing UCT]
WL[967.528]
;B[bp]BL[951.248];W[gc]
C[jhouse [3k\]: I have my own ideas for search algorithms, but I \
think I need a strong core before I play around with stuff that \
may not work]
WL[956.038];B[qj]BL[937.379];W[kg]WL[944.534];B[ce]BL[923.579];W[gh]WL[933.021];B[re]BL[910.161];W[kd]WL[921.548];B[li]BL[896.858];W[dp]WL[910.053]
;B[eq]BL[883.469];W[rc]WL[898.505];B[fg]BL[870.352];W[mg]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: I want to teach nakade in playout. They often \
miss simple 3moku nakade.]
WL[888.012];B[bf]BL[857.5];W[kf]WL[877.55];B[jb]BL[844.715];W[og]WL[867.041];B[bm]
C[tmc [-\]: Why are MC bots quite poor at certain techniques?]
BL[832.109];W[of]WL[856.537]
;B[lh]BL[819.582];W[oi]
C[jhouse [3k\]: Nothing's perfect ;)]
WL[846.048];B[ef]BL[807.223];W[cb]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: I think one reasone is pattern recognition \
is heavy.]
WL[835.579];B[hh]BL[794.937];W[dm]WL[825.099];B[bl]BL[782.64];W[lg]WL[815.645];B[bk]
C[tmc [-\]: Is it when the bot needs to find a long sequence exactly \
before it can see the benefit of the first move?
jhouse [3k\]: You could say that having to figure out how to play \
go each move of the game is a rather stupid technique :)]
BL[770.482];W[gi]
C[jhouse [3k\]: tmc, that's a big part of it]
WL[806.157]
;B[dn]BL[758.413];W[pd]WL[796.685];B[kh]BL[746.723];W[hb]WL[787.188];B[hc]BL[734.918];W[cd]
C[jhouse [3k\]: Housebot's winning chances have gone up.  Now around \
6%]
WL[777.697];B[eh]BL[723.477];W[fj]WL[768.232];B[lb]BL[712.164];W[nf]WL[758.78]
;B[oe]
C[tmc [-\]: We use monte-carlo at work for different things, and \
one of its biggest difficulties is too find very small spikes \
in the cost function.]
BL[700.954];W[gg]
C[tmc [-\]: Especially in high dimensional search spaces.]
WL[750.286];B[je]BL[689.912];W[pf]WL[741.781];B[jf]BL[678.979];W[bd]WL[733.246];B[jh]
C[jhouse [3k\]: K12 is quite big]
BL[667.978];W[jm]WL[724.794];B[pe]
C[jhouse [3k\]: Now up to 12% to win :)]
BL[657.333];W[mk]
C[jhouse [3k\]: 15%
tmc [-\]: yay!]
WL[716.308]
;B[ge]BL[646.752];W[qd]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: Aya thinks 100%since 30 moves before :-)]
WL[707.848];B[fb]
C[jhouse [3k\]: :)]
BL[636.259];W[gl]
C[jhouse [3k\]: I assume you have heavy playouts then?]
WL[699.371];B[ed]BL[625.898];W[ad]WL[690.905];B[bo]BL[615.706];W[el]
C[tmc [-\]: It would be interesting to see statistics of how often \
the bot wins when it thinks it has a 60% chance etc.
HYamashita [1d?\]: I think a bit heavy playout.]
WL[682.41];B[eb]BL[605.486];W[gf]WL[674.928]
;B[fc]
C[jhouse [3k\]: there's certainly a lot of aji in this game.  I'm \
surprised to hear 100% from your bot]
BL[595.436];W[ob]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: my playout is almost same as Remi's paper.]
WL[667.416];B[ao]BL[585.452];W[am]WL[663.223];B[qe]
C[jhouse [3k\]: I'm not there yet.  I hope to be in ~2 months]
BL[575.468];W[kj]WL[655.725];B[lj]BL[565.69];W[od]WL[648.25];B[lk]BL[556.217];W[nb]WL[640.733]
;B[ig]BL[546.78];W[ba]WL[633.276];B[gd]BL[537.526];W[em]WL[625.825];B[dr]
C[jhouse [3k\]: black A18 is interesting]
BL[528.378];W[kl]WL[618.365];B[nc]BL[519.309];W[ae]WL[610.872];B[bl]BL[510.184];W[ma]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: yeah. Aya think left up white is OK. but it \
is ko?
RemiCoulom [5k\]: H14 would be too easy :-)
mandelbrot [2k\]: A18 is nothing]
WL[604.387]
;B[sc]BL[501.268];W[rb]WL[598.522];B[dg]
C[jhouse [3k\]: A18 is nothing to humans, but can lead to nakade \
and other stuff that can mess up random playouts]
BL[492.547];W[kk]WL[592.025];B[lm]BL[483.784];W[sb]WL[585.553];B[ab]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: oh!]
BL[475.311];W[mb]WL[579.074];B[ln]
C[jhouse [3k\]: come on d19]
BL[466.809];W[lq]
C[jhouse [3k\]: (for black of course)
HYamashita [1d?\]: do not come on :-)]
WL[572.592]
;B[bm]BL[458.377];W[nd]
C[jhouse [3k\]: HouseBot thinks 27% to win]
WL[566.101];B[qh]
C[RemiCoulom [5k\]: amaf should find d19.]
BL[450.056];W[sn]WL[559.605];B[da]
C[RemiCoulom [5k\]: yes !
jhouse [3k\]: I use AMAF :)]
BL[441.988];W[lo]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: oop!]
WL[553.113];B[ph]
C[RemiCoulom [5k\]: score ?]
BL[434.071];W[md]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: is white ok?]
WL[546.581];B[hf]BL[426.14];W[ki]
C[tmc [-\]: What do the bots say?
mandelbrot [2k\]: why didn't w play d19>
mandelbrot [2k\]: ?
jhouse [3k\]: 29% for black :)]
WL[540.116]
;B[lf]BL[418.294];W[ng]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: down to 98% from 100%...]
WL[534.42];B[rh]BL[410.651];W[pg]
C[jhouse [3k\]: upper left has ko and nakade]
WL[528.917];B[lc]BL[402.932];W[ml]
C[mandelbrot [2k\]: there was no ko]
WL[523.438];B[or]BL[395.537];W[pr]
C[jhouse [3k\]: mandelbrot, you have to think of *random* playouts]
WL[518.802];B[pa]BL[388.231];W[km]
C[jhouse [3k\]: they can get confused by simple things that don't \
matter]
WL[513.31]
;B[mc]BL[380.966];W[oh]WL[507.808];B[me]BL[373.834];W[la]
C[jhouse [3k\]: 40%]
WL[502.348];B[ra]BL[366.796];W[pc]WL[496.855];B[qa]BL[359.783];W[mq]WL[491.382];B[oa]
C[tmc [-\]: This is a good effort by house bot]
BL[352.944];W[os]
C[jhouse [3k\]: :)]
WL[485.895]
;B[df]BL[346.133];W[hp]
C[jhouse [3k\]: I want to see L19 now]
WL[480.331];B[cr]BL[339.305];W[mp]WL[474.862];B[so]BL[332.707];W[rr]
C[jhouse [3k\]: up to 56%]
WL[469.366];B[ii]BL[326.236];W[qr]WL[463.837];B[ka]
C[jhouse [3k\]: HouseBot does not recognize seki]
BL[319.748];W[fs]WL[458.325]
;B[sd]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: ...maybe houseBot think right up white is dead, \
not seki :-)]
BL[313.416];W[hg]
C[jhouse [3k\]: Near end, it may play inside the eye for no good \
reason and lose]
WL[452.861];B[qi]BL[307.075];W[fi]
C[tmc [-\]: which eye?]
WL[447.296];B[cp]BL[300.976];W[ej]WL[442.8];B[kn]
C[jhouse [3k\]: the big eye... O19, T19, R18]
BL[294.979];W[kp]
C[RemiCoulom [5k\]: Crazy Stone now understands seki in the playouts.]
WL[438.313];B[sk]BL[289.098];W[es]
C[RemiCoulom [5k\]: I thought it would be easy.
jhouse [3k\]: How'd you do it?
RemiCoulom [5k\]: But it is not.]
WL[433.85]
;B[bs]BL[283.203];W[nj]
C[RemiCoulom [5k\]: It is _very_ complicated.]
WL[429.34];B[dc]BL[277.405];W[ko]WL[424.842];B[ib]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: I think there are too many type of seki...
jhouse [3k\]: 65% :)]
BL[271.684];W[jo]WL[420.359];B[dl]BL[266.115];W[bk]WL[417.897];B[ie]BL[260.391];W[ds]
C[RemiCoulom [5k\]: Of course, there are some extraordinary sekis \
that it does not get.]
WL[413.419]
;B[ih]BL[254.969];W[ei]
C[jhouse [3k\]: does aya recognize the seki?]
WL[408.947];B[jn]BL[249.558];W[mj]WL[404.472];B[jj]BL[244.298];W[jk]WL[401.937];B[ea]BL[239.165];W[cs]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: Aya knows simple seki. just avoid selfatari \
over 3 stones.]
WL[397.444];B[ar]BL[233.955];W[sp]WL[392.95]
;B[ca]
C[tmc [-\]: Is pass an option in the playouts?]
BL[228.922];W[sm]WL[388.484];B[aa]
C[jhouse [3k\]: not an option in my playouts]
BL[224.021];W[af]WL[384.025];B[ja]
C[jhouse [3k\]: 62%]
BL[219.163];W[ac]WL[379.533];B[aq]BL[214.319];W[ha]WL[375.055];B[ir]BL[209.473];W[nn]WL[370.589]
;B[gc]BL[204.879];W[ga]
C[jhouse [3k\]: avoiding self atari for over 3 stones sounds like \
it'd miss nakade]
WL[366.104];B[rs]BL[200.397];W[ps]WL[361.634];B[ss]BL[195.773];W[sq]WL[357.102];B[rl]BL[191.413];W[ri]WL[353.634];B[bm]
C[RemiCoulom [5k\]: W wins.]
BL[187.151];W[ia]WL[350.161]
;B[ec]BL[182.807];W[rf]WL[346.677];B[sh]BL[178.594];W[si]
C[jhouse [3k\]: yes, w wins if they recognize the seki]
WL[343.187];B[qb]BL[174.526];W[ns]WL[339.692];B[sf]BL[170.463];W[kr]WL[336.192];B[ik]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: yes., I added specail routine for nakade. but \
it is not perfect.]
BL[166.403];W[oo]WL[332.705]
;B[sj]BL[162.33];W[rq]
C[Hannoskaj [10k?\]: Now we have to wait until everything is one-eye, \
and finally HouseBot suicides in the seki, that's it?]
WL[329.231];B[se]BL[158.393];W[gs]
C[RemiCoulom [5k\]: "avoid selfatari over 3 stones" is a good way \
to lose games in a stupid way ;-)]
WL[325.763];B[pq]
C[jhouse [3k\]: Yeah, that's it]
BL[154.681];W[hj]WL[322.272];B[gp]BL[151.034];W[jl]WL[318.763];B[ik]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: ............ right :)]
BL[147.47];W[hq]WL[315.295]
;B[rg]
C[fotland [?\]: yes, must recognize nakade]
BL[143.978];W[sr]WL[311.834];B[ba]BL[140.582];W[so]
C[jhouse [3k\]: actually, it'll likely resign shortly after doing \
that stupid move :)
Extend [5k\]: whats nakade?]
WL[308.34];B[iq]BL[137.174];W[ls]
C[fotland [?\]: dead shape only one eye]
WL[304.794];B[il]BL[133.858];W[jj]
C[Extend [5k\]: oh
fotland [?\]: self atari that makes nakade kills group]
WL[301.331];B[lr]BL[130.662];W[ks]WL[297.871]
;B[nq]
C[tmc [-\]: It was a good game though.
jhouse [3k\]: HouseBot says 74% to win now]
BL[127.476];W[ms]WL[294.4];B[op]
C[fotland [?\]: have to recognize in playouts]
BL[124.311];W[po]
C[jhouse [3k\]: I found the end interesting]
WL[292.19];B[rj]BL[121.204];W[ri]
C[tmc [-\]: Why does housebot get it wrong?]
WL[288.719];B[nr]BL[118.094];W[mr]WL[286.485];B[si]BL[114.979];W[is]
C[jhouse [3k\]: HouseBot has no specialized knowledge of any kind]
WL[282.882]
;B[do]BL[112.027];W[dp]WL[279.428];B[iq]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: game will finish soon...
fotland [?\]: must think white self atari in upper right]
BL[109.203];W[im]WL[275.939];B[co]BL[106.286];W[bl]WL[272.482];B[dq]
C[jhouse [3k\]: yeah, playouts do no fear self atari
tmc [-\]: Ah, yes.]
BL[103.476];W[oq]WL[269.025];B[nq]BL[100.715];W[op]WL[265.536]
;B[nr]BL[97.993];W[ir]WL[262.056];B[fa]BL[95.473];W[ia]
C[jhouse [3k\]: win rate peaked at 78% and is now dropping]
WL[258.558];B[hb]BL[93.027];W[ha]WL[255.052];B[ga]BL[90.504];W[ia]WL[252.575];B[bc]BL[87.931];W[ac]WL[250.1]
;B[cb]BL[85.647];W[ad]WL[247.619];B[ik]BL[83.187];W[dd]WL[245.142];B[bd]
C[Hannoskaj [10k?\]: Remi, is the basic idea of the seki routine, \
looking whose color is one intersection at the end when move \
was finally played where it was doubtful, and roll back if necessart, \
or totally different?]
BL[80.896];W[cd]WL[242.666];B[ha]BL[78.726];W[af]
C[yoyoma [1d\]: house why isn't win precent near 50%?  I'm thinking \
it's 50/50 who self-ataris in the seki in playouts?]
WL[240.183];B[ae]BL[76.654];W[ac]WL[237.692]
;B[cc]BL[74.477];W[cd]WL[235.196];B[ad]BL[72.214];W[qq]WL[232.68];B[dd]BL[70.228];W[go]
C[HYamashita [1d?\]: oh, thanks for the game.
fotland [?\]: becasue size of capture is different
yoyoma [1d\]: That shouldn't matter, whoever capture wins
fotland [?\]: now, yes, but earlier there was still unsettled \
territory
fotland [?\]: or maybe he has some bias in move generator
jhouse [3k\]: It all depends on the shape of the tree.  If it \
stops at black's move and white plays randomly, it's chances \
are better
jhouse [3k\]: win rate for last few moves went 74%, 55%, 12%, \
0% (resign)
yoyoma [1d\]: hehe
fotland [?\]: so if b has more threats he can make white play \
first outside of tree
jhouse [3k\]: In the end, it claimed to have solved the whole \
game down to the final stone and saw it lost
jhouse [3k\]: Of course, that's only because black has no option \
now but to play in the big eye since eye-filling is considered \
even worse
jhouse [3k\]: Yeah, it's a side effect of the UCT search
fotland [?\]: so why not fix this?  it's not too hard and makes \
program much stronger
jhouse [3k\]: fotland - all in due time.
fotland [?\]: ok
jhouse [3k\]: A hobbyist programmer working in his spare time \
has very slow progress
fotland [?\]: I understand
fotland [?\]: same for me (spare time that is)
jhouse [3k\]: first game ever where seki was important to the \
outcome
fotland [?\]: but seki happens a lot in the playouts
jhouse [3k\]: you have many faces to start from :)
fotland [?\]: still uct all new code
jhouse [3k\]: I have UCT and RAVE in my code
jhouse [3k\]: It was slow, so I spent a while speeding it up. \
I'm now nearly 15x faster.  Time to add heavy playouts :)
jhouse [3k\]: getting shapes and basic openings will still take \
priority over seki]
WL[231.212])
