(;
GM[1]FF[4]VW[]AP[Many Faces of Go version 12.001]
SZ[19]
HA[0]
ST[0]
PB[ManyFaces1]
PW[PueGo]
DT[2010-03-07]
PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]
KM[7.5]
TM[1740]
RU[Chinese]
RE[B+Resign]
BR[1d]
OT[25/30 Canadian]
C[ManyFaces1 [1d\]: GTP Engine for ManyFaces1 (black): Many Faces \
of Go version 12 (2008 world champion), playing at level 2 kyu. \
Uses Many Faces' knowledge combined with Monte Carlo evaluation. \
Free evaluation download at www.smart-games.com. iPhone/iPod \
Igowin app has this full engine.
PueGo [-\]: GTP Engine for PueGo (white): Fuego version 0.4.1.SVN]
CA[UTF-8];B[pc]BL[1737.658];W[pp]WL[1739.747];B[dp]BL[1733.123];W[dd]WL[1739.449];B[qe]BL[1727.702];W[kc]WL[1739.172];B[cf]BL[1723.622];W[cj]WL[1721.73]
;B[cc]BL[1712.561];W[cd]WL[1707.459];B[dc]BL[1701.914];W[ed]WL[1689.54];B[bd]
C[september3 [6k\]: hi fotland, can you program manyfaces so that \
it tells a more specific version?]
BL[1695.978];W[be]WL[1676.501];B[bc]BL[1689.122];W[ce]WL[1665.278];B[bf]BL[1669.424];W[dg]WL[1648.025]
;B[ae]BL[1661.579];W[df]WL[1633.145];B[gc]BL[1646.692];W[ec]WL[1620.14];B[eb]BL[1638.907];W[fb]WL[1607.76];B[ch]BL[1626.427];W[cg]WL[1601.903];B[bg]BL[1618.624];W[af]WL[1597.609]
;B[ag]BL[1610.766];W[bi]WL[1585.851];B[da]BL[1602.923];W[fc]WL[1573.363];B[bh]BL[1590.208];W[dh]WL[1550.527];B[di]BL[1573.939];W[ci]WL[1538.671];B[ei]BL[1566.042];W[ad]WL[1520.478]
;B[ac]BL[1557.954];W[dk]WL[1507.011];B[gi]BL[1541.507];W[fh]WL[1494.562];B[gh]BL[1530.746];W[gg]WL[1479.429];B[hg]BL[1522.607];W[hf]WL[1468.473];B[gf]BL[1514.356];W[fg]WL[1457.145]
;B[ig]BL[1496.37];W[fi]WL[1454.855];B[fj]
C[pasky [1d?\]: interesting beginning]
BL[1487.86];W[gj]WL[1443.637];B[gk]BL[1479.248];W[hj]WL[1433.075];B[hk]BL[1470.54];W[hh]WL[1422.203];B[ij]BL[1461.763];W[hi]
C[september3 [6k\]: i like white]
WL[1411.353]
;B[fk]
C[pasky [1d?\]: now i like whit etoo :)]
BL[1442.595];W[ik]
C[Liisa [1d\]: puego is doing well, but you never know the outcome \
until it is finished.]
WL[1400.367];B[il]BL[1430.398];W[jk]WL[1389.783];B[jl]
C[pasky [1d?\]: to me it seems fuego is frequently fairly likely \
to get a very favorable position at the beginning, but then proceed \
to lose the game due to a misread later]
BL[1420.388];W[kk]WL[1381.401];B[dm]
C[september3 [6k\]: manyfaces has a good record vs fuego in CGOS]
BL[1399.517];W[kl]WL[1370.592];B[km]BL[1390.404];W[lm]WL[1359.902]
;B[kn]BL[1381.379];W[ln]WL[1355.77];B[ll]
C[pasky [1d?\]: (it seems that fuego likes to prune a lot, which \
helps to read out strategic branches but causes misses in tactical \
situations - at least that's my impression)]
BL[1372.124];W[ko]WL[1345.265];B[jo]BL[1362.69];W[hl]WL[1338.245];B[jn]BL[1353.242];W[im]WL[1335.107];B[jm]BL[1343.419];W[jp]WL[1330.224]
;B[lo]BL[1333.832];W[kp]WL[1327.394];B[hm]BL[1323.906];W[np]
C[september3 [6k\]: what about e10]
WL[1311.06];B[lp]BL[1310.63];W[lq]WL[1300.417];B[mn]BL[1300.696];W[mm]WL[1290.533];B[lk]BL[1272.891];W[io]WL[1279.965]
;B[in]BL[1262.896];W[jj]WL[1268.186];B[nm]BL[1252.697];W[mq]WL[1252.342];B[ii]BL[1225.028];W[ih]WL[1238.994];B[ji]BL[1214.647];W[jh]
C[september3 [6k\]: doesnt look good for white now]
WL[1229.647];B[kj]BL[1187.129];W[nc]WL[1217.621]
;B[gb]BL[1159.993];W[ga]WL[1208.017];B[ea]BL[1142.744];W[fa]WL[1198.188];B[ip]BL[1116.434];W[iq]WL[1189.01];B[hp]BL[1105.552];W[ca]
C[pasky [1d?\]: oops, what happenned]
WL[1180.189];B[db]
C[pasky [1d?\]: 30%]
BL[1094.671];W[ba]
C[pasky [1d?\]: well see
pasky [1d?\]: that's what i meant ;)
Liisa [1d\]: mf played empty triangle]
WL[1170.673]
;B[qn]BL[1070.58];W[rp]
C[september3 [6k\]: that was easy l&d problem]
WL[1160.439];B[hq]BL[1059.617];W[qg]WL[1150.437];B[oe]BL[1048.377];W[ml]WL[1141.41];B[nl]BL[1037.188];W[mk]WL[1137.431];B[mj]BL[1005.437];W[nk]WL[1128.709]
;B[ok]BL[993.776];W[nj]
C[september3 [6k\]: whats black doing?
fotland [?\]: 37% for blakc
fotland [?\]: desparate
Liisa [1d\]: and we have a ladder here]
WL[1127.394];B[mo]BL[962.296];W[nn]
C[pasky [1d?\]: 75% for white]
WL[1118.607];B[no]BL[950.622];W[on]
C[fotland [?\]: why is fuego so much weaker on cgos?
pasky [1d?\]: when did it change? at p15?]
WL[1117.22];B[oo]BL[939.284];W[ol]
C[pasky [1d?\]: i don't know, perhaps different hardware]
WL[1115.864];B[kq]
C[Aloriless [?\]: fuego benefits from additional time a lot
pasky [1d?\]: this is 4-core i7 920i with hyperthreading]
BL[928.063];W[jq]
C[september3 [6k\]: why weaker, it won??
Aloriless [?\]: up to certain point
pasky [1d?\]: i don't run the cgos fuego
pasky [1d?\]: also, this is latest SVN]
WL[1108.84]
;B[kr]
C[pasky [1d?\]: don't know about fuego on cgos
Aloriless [?\]: difference between 10min/game and 30min/game can \
be quite big]
BL[916.293];W[po]WL[1100.443];B[ni]BL[905.341];W[oj]
C[fotland [?\]: ic  MF doesn;t scal as well]
WL[1091.965];B[oi]BL[894.475];W[pj]
C[Aloriless [?\]: fuego isn't good on 19x19 blitz
HYamashita [1k\]: fuego is strong against Zen, but it is weak \
against mogo on cgos, interesting...
fotland [?\]: since mf knowledge is big part of its strength]
WL[1083.812];B[pn]BL[883.754];W[om]WL[1082.452];B[jr]BL[872.538];W[op]WL[1074.15]
;B[ir]BL[861.718];W[ej]WL[1072.816];B[bb]BL[851.351];W[ab]
C[Aloriless [?\]: fast hardware == not anymore blitz ;-)]
WL[1062.489];B[kf]BL[825.184];W[jg]WL[1054.275];B[kd]BL[808.338];W[ld]
C[Liisa [1d\]: it seems that bent four is still difficult for MC]
WL[1046.111];B[le]BL[798.661];W[me]WL[1037.888]
;B[md]BL[789.037];W[lc]WL[1030.02];B[mf]BL[779.357];W[mc]WL[1018.98];B[jd]BL[769.454];W[jc]WL[1012.582];B[id]BL[755.175];W[ke]
C[fotland [?\]: 41%]
WL[1002.446];B[ne]BL[745.986];W[je]WL[993.883]
;B[jf]BL[736.721];W[ie]
C[pasky [1d?\]: still 75% here]
WL[985.727];B[if]BL[727.755];W[he]WL[984.363];B[pi]BL[719.009];W[qj]WL[975.977];B[qi]BL[710.334];W[ri]
C[HYamashita [1k\]: top left is difficult...]
WL[966.548];B[rh]
C[fotland [?\]: 58% now]
BL[701.763];W[rj]WL[953.851]
;B[qh]BL[693.396];W[ge]
C[fotland [?\]: doesn't read kos well in playouts]
WL[938.76];B[cq]
C[fotland [?\]: so top left bas big bias
Aloriless [?\]: at OGS Fuego with 1k playouts is 19k, 10k playouts \
is 11k, 100k playouts is 6k, 1M playouts is 4k]
BL[684.933];W[bm]WL[930.247];B[cl]BL[676.64];W[bl]WL[915.159];B[ms]
C[fotland [?\]: how many playout is it doing now per move?]
BL[668.485];W[lr]
C[fotland [?\]: about 300K per move for MF
Aloriless [?\]: and 10-20M is 3k, Fuego hits scalability limits \
partially because it missreads capture races too often]
WL[899.764];B[ls]BL[660.284];W[pr]WL[891.583]
;B[ek]BL[646.195];W[dj]WL[879.53];B[ob]BL[630.42];W[sh]WL[869.444];B[sg]BL[622.649];W[rg]WL[859.804];B[si]
C[fotland [?\]: is fuego giving up now?]
BL[615.085];W[sf]WL[847.936];B[sh]BL[607.539];W[mi]
C[Aloriless [?\]: those moves look like it is]
WL[831.958]
;B[mh]BL[600.145];W[sj]WL[820.234];B[bo]
C[fotland [?\]: 71%]
BL[581.925];W[lj]
C[pasky [1d?\]: fuego still 77%]
WL[811.033];B[li]
C[fotland [?\]: wow, one has a huge bias]
BL[574.651];W[mj]WL[801.886];B[nh]BL[567.618];W[bk]
C[Aloriless [?\]: upper left corner?
pasky [1d?\]: i think fuego has]
WL[786.538];B[cn]BL[560.653];W[pd]WL[774.51]
;B[od]
C[fotland [?\]: score est says black wins even if upper left dies
Aloriless [?\]: pasky: how many playouts / move?]
BL[553.622];W[qc]WL[761.924];B[qb]
C[september3 [6k\]: SE doesnt work with chinese]
BL[546.782];W[oc]WL[750.765];B[pb]BL[540.022];W[rb]WL[739.927];B[rc]BL[533.071];W[rd]
C[pasky [1d?\]: 395336 on last move]
WL[728.836];B[qd]BL[526.448];W[rr]
C[fotland [?\]: 290732 here
fotland [?\]: so fuego is doing more playouts]
WL[719.407]
;B[lh]
C[fotland [?\]: 8-core?]
BL[511.331];W[kg]
C[fotland [?\]: last month I switched to really heavy playouts
pasky [1d?\]: 4-core with hyperthreading]
WL[707.044];B[lf]
C[fotland [?\]: and got a big boost on cgos
pasky [1d?\]: nice]
BL[505.046];W[ib]
C[fotland [?\]: inspired by Pachi :)
pasky [1d?\]: ^^ really?
fotland [?\]: yes]
WL[695.77];B[dl]BL[491.252];W[hd]WL[684.227];B[se]
C[fotland [?\]: looked like you got a big boost for using patterns \
and the crazystone framework in playouts]
BL[486.498];W[kl]
C[Hikaru852 [11k\]: what are these numbers?
pasky [1d?\]: glad :) i got inspired by mfog a lot when tuning \
early]
WL[668.323];B[kk]
C[pasky [1d?\]: actually, i didn't yet! ;) i don't use this code \
by default at all and it is still not working well for me]
BL[481.919];W[re]
C[fotland [?\]: the total number of playouts for makign one move]
WL[653.988]
;B[rf]
C[Hikaru852 [11k\]: playouts?]
BL[477.328];W[pe]
C[fotland [?\]: many faces is doing about 21K playotus per core \
per move]
WL[636.251];B[ma]
C[pasky [1d?\]: this method does work well for you?
Hikaru852 [11k\]: what are playouts?]
BL[472.359];W[sc]
C[CrazyCrane [6k\]: playouts = simulated games
ibd [7k?\]: 21k is still a lot, must be well optimized]
WL[622.834];B[sd]
C[Aloriless [?\]: playout==play game semirandomly until end and \
score it
fotland [?\]: I didn;t do the learn pattern thing.  but I added \
some other pieces
ibd [7k?\]: if you are using CS style ones]
BL[467.86];W[sb]
C[pasky [1d?\]: yes 21k is pretty awesome]
WL[606.147];B[nb]
C[Hikaru852 [11k\]: ah i get it you guys are computer programmers
pasky [1d?\]: pachi is much slower
fotland [?\]: 93%
Hikaru852 [11k\]: i wont try to nderstand ^_^]
BL[463.029];W[ra]WL[589.153];B[ka]
C[fotland [?\]: fuego must realize its losing now
pasky [1d?\]: oh wait per move]
BL[458.467];W[ja]WL[575.262]
;B[os]
C[pasky [1d?\]: well, pachi uses fairly complicated time management \
(which amounted a big jump in strength though)]
BL[454.057];W[kb]
C[fotland [?\]: not 21k per second, 21k per move]
WL[563.489];B[la]
C[fotland [?\]: only about 2k per second per core
pasky [1d?\]: pachi does about 12k per second per thread]
BL[449.582];W[or]
C[Hikaru852 [11k\]: wow manyfaces is very good]
WL[545.752];B[kh]
C[pasky [1d?\]: but that's still the mogo-style playouts
fotland [?\]: I need to go back to optimization again]
BL[445.246];W[pf]
C[pasky [1d?\]: crazystone-style playouts are dog-slow :(]
WL[532.6];B[of]
C[fotland [?\]: since I started at about 60K per sec
ibd [7k?\]: pasky, you got a big jump in strength from time management \
changes? how big?]
BL[440.905];W[mr]WL[521.452];B[aa]
C[fotland [?\]: finally the ko
pasky [1d?\]: ibd: iirc something like 25%->35%, don't remember \
clearly]
BL[436.621];W[ns]WL[506.209]
;B[cb]
C[fotland [?\]: I was also inspired to change time management from \
pashi a few weeks ago
Hikaru852 [11k\]: good game
pasky [1d?\]: by doing things like reading longer when two best \
candidates are close to each other or if there is too big difference \
between best child and best child's child
pasky [1d?\]: fotland: nice :)
fotland [?\]: nice game
ibd [7k?\]: ah
fotland [?\]: have to look at the upper left tho
Aloriless [?\]: GnuGo: W+6 if upper left dead
ibd [7k?\]: that sounds really interesting, I never thought about \
incorporating tree results in search time length
fotland [?\]: looked like fuego thought UL was dead so it gave \
away lots of points playing safe
pasky [1d?\]: someone on computer-go@ mentioned it long ago
pasky [1d?\]: yes :(
fotland [?\]: I just look at two best cantidates
pasky [1d?\]: best's best is actually what turned out to be more \
important for me
pasky [1d?\]: i recommend to try it
pasky [1d?\]: well nice to hear that even without pattern-learning \
the crazystone-style can work
pasky [1d?\]: i hope to go back to playing with it soon :)
ibd [7k?\]: :)
fotland [?\]: just switching to the gamma framework for combining \
features made a difference
fotland [?\]: before I just had a priority decision tree
pasky [1d?\]: do you use it both in tree priors and in playouts?
ibd [7k?\]: like a priority queue?
pasky [1d?\]: or just in one of these?
fotland [?\]: just playouts
fotland [?\]: tree uses plain UCT with many faces bias and move \
pruning
september3 [6k\]: come on guys dont cheat :P
fotland [?\]: only looks at top 30 moves from MF engine
fotland [?\]: playout move generator was simple
fotland [?\]: something like if tactic, play move
fotland [?\]: if neighbor tactic play move
fotland [?\]: if mogog pattern match play a move
fotland [?\]: otherwise uniform random no fill eyes
pasky [1d?\]: yes that's pretty much exactly what i have
pasky [1d?\]: well i suspect my gamma code is just not debugged \
well enough yet :)]
BL[432.202])
