(;
GM[1]FF[4]VW[]AP[Many Faces of Go:11.0]
SZ[19]
HA[0]
ST[0]
PB[StoneGrid]
PW[Zen19]
DT[2011-01-09]
PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]
KM[7.5]
TM[1740]
RU[Chinese]
RE[W+Resign]
WR[4d]
OT[25/60 Canadian]
C[StoneGrid [-\]: GTP Engine for StoneGrid (black): stonegrid version \
0.3.3 1167
Zen19 [4d\]: GTP Engine for Zen19 (white): Zen version 6.9
lamna [3d\]: GO ZEN !
lamna [3d\]: jipp jipp
lamna [3d\]: !!!!!!]
CA[UTF-8];B[ic]
C[idontca1: zen white]
BL[1718.921];W[pp]WL[1725.766];B[pd]BL[1698.157];W[dp]
C[ajahuang [6d\]: who is the author of stonegrid?
ajahuang [6d\]: never heard of it
notbert [5k?\]: jrr tollkien]
WL[1712.21];B[dk]BL[1677.707];W[de]
C[ajahuang [6d\]: it looks like a good program]
WL[1695.977];B[pg]
C[pasky [?\]: i don't remember his nick, he was online yesterday \
though]
BL[1656.943];W[pc]
C[pasky [?\]: participated in one tournament already, did very well
potkuri: author is John Fan according to a program database online]
WL[1687.515]
;B[qc]
C[potkuri: http://www.computer-go.info/db/operson.php?a=Fan%2C+John]
BL[1636.405];W[oc]WL[1670.475];B[lc]BL[1615.438];W[md]WL[1653.332];B[kq]
C[idontca1: losing move]
BL[1594.578];W[qd]WL[1638.447];B[qe]
C[DnFBlitz [1k\]: i think stonegrid author is stg[3d\], but there \
is no info in his profile]
BL[1573.469];W[rd]WL[1625.096];B[cc]
C[kostuek [-\]: b is tenuki monster]
BL[1553.807];W[pe]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: yeah, but Q15 was a bit urgent.]
WL[1608.352]
;B[ch]BL[1533.553];W[ff]WL[1591.822];B[pj]BL[1514.088];W[ec]WL[1577.24];B[fq]BL[1494.671];W[ld]
C[idontca1: lol
idontca1: it doenst make a 2 moves sequence]
WL[1569.986];B[dr]BL[1474.919];W[fp]WL[1555.03];B[gp]BL[1454.875];W[go]WL[1538.598]
;B[dn]BL[1435.302];W[en]WL[1522.186];B[ep]BL[1416.716];W[fo]WL[1506.752];B[eq]BL[1398.147];W[dm]WL[1490.216];B[eo]BL[1378.516];W[cn]WL[1474.304];B[do]BL[1359.354];W[fm]WL[1460.47]
;B[ho]
C[gogonuts [5d\]: this is a really inhuman fuseki]
BL[1340.423];W[hn]WL[1444.512];B[be]BL[1320.104];W[hp]WL[1432.531];B[gq]BL[1299.149];W[jp]WL[1417.642];B[cm]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: at least he played g3.]
BL[1281.216];W[cl]WL[1401.935];B[bm]BL[1262.945];W[hc]WL[1394.329]
;B[dl]BL[1244.543];W[jq]
C[pasky [?\]: gogonuts: now what do you expect ;-)]
WL[1378.519];B[hb]
C[gogonuts [5d\]: hard to predict this game :-)]
BL[1226.361];W[kc]WL[1362.945];B[gc]
C[gogonuts [5d\]: b doing ok up to now it seems]
BL[1207.927];W[hd]WL[1348.839];B[gd]BL[1188.638];W[ge]
C[gogonuts [5d\]: h17 was surprising even by bot standards :-)]
WL[1341.501];B[kb]
C[gogonuts [5d\]: g17, sry
gogonuts [5d\]: no h17]
BL[1170.476];W[fb]
C[gogonuts [5d\]: this game is confusing me :-)]
WL[1326.194]
;B[he]
C[kostuek [-\]: thats the future of go]
BL[1152.78];W[id]WL[1317.294];B[jc]BL[1135.677];W[gb]WL[1309.775];B[io]BL[1118.183];W[jn]
C[gogonuts [5d\]: i hope not :-)]
WL[1291.562];B[in]
C[woldsom [2k\]: I expect as the technology advances, they'll start \
to play more like pros
gogonuts [5d\]: i mean, the bots yes, but not this play]
BL[1101.41];W[im]WL[1276.852];B[gn]BL[1084.117];W[fn]WL[1269.368]
;B[hm]BL[1067.584];W[il]WL[1261.462];B[hl]
C[gogonuts [5d\]: this looks promising for b ...]
BL[1050.496];W[hk]
C[DnFBlitz [1k\]: take a guess: when will a bot invent a new move \
which is copied by pros?
woldsom [2k\]: b getting too much I think]
WL[1254.138];B[jo]
C[miao [6d\]: not sure]
BL[1033.829];W[ko]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: DnF: i think that's already the case in 9x9 openings, \
but i'm just taking a wild stab at it.]
WL[1240.907];B[jm]
C[woldsom [2k\]: DnFBlitz, you mean joseki? because there's not \
much copying to be done otherwise
Witless [2k\]: Do they carry a database of games and joseki or \
just work everything out from first principles?]
BL[1018.046];W[kn]
C[woldsom [2k\]: Witless, many different approaches
DnFBlitz [1k\]: i think the openings are especially reliant on \
databases]
WL[1226.944];B[ip]
C[gogonuts [5d\]: bots will at some point become very good at special \
situations - so you will have bot moves that will be praised, \
but that are to specific to the situation to be copied]
BL[1002.008];W[kp]
C[woldsom [2k\]: the games that are good in the opening do use joseki \
dictionaries though]
WL[1219.123]
;B[ik]
C[woldsom [2k\]: the bots I mean
testtesttt [3d\]: j9 r3 then gg]
BL[985.838];W[jl]
C[DnFBlitz [1k\]: i must say gogonuts comment sounds very reasonable
uurtamo [12k?\]: j9  then g9. tricky.]
WL[1204.973];B[jk]BL[969.987];W[kl]
C[Cephi [7k?\]: Does KGS not allow bots to acquire rank?]
WL[1198.043];B[ie]
C[woldsom [2k\]: it does]
BL[953.916];W[jd]
C[woldsom [2k\]: you just have to ask for it
uurtamo [12k?\]: cephi: bots have rank -- zen19 is 4d.]
WL[1190.967];B[kd]BL[937.977];W[je]
C[Cephi [7k?\]: Ha, I thought only Stonegrid was a bot.]
WL[1183.239];B[ke]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: this is a bot tournament in the "computer go" \
room.]
BL[921.684];W[jf]WL[1175.612]
;B[kf]
C[Cephi [7k?\]: I got to it through Open Games.  I had no idea 4d \
bots even existed.]
BL[905.342];W[jg]WL[1160.753];B[kg]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: kgs4d, but just barely (see rank graph).
ajahuang [6d\]: stonegrid looks strong]
BL[890.181];W[ib]
C[woldsom [2k\]: it's probably not proper 4d - playing openly on \
a server like this have some selection bias
ajahuang [6d\]: black is leading]
WL[1152.709];B[kk]
C[DnFBlitz [1k\]: Zen19 is usually playing blitz games, in which \
humans seem to make mistakes quicker, and so there is some advantage \
for bots
testtesttt [3d\]: but seems like b has weak middle game]
BL[875.246];W[kh]WL[1137.862];B[lh]
C[DnFBlitz [1k\]: but Zen19N seems strong 2d, and is playing slow \
games]
BL[860.078];W[ki]WL[1126.17];B[ll]BL[844.77];W[km]
C[testtesttt [3d\]: i doubt if zen is stronger than you in slow \
game]
WL[1112.454]
;B[li]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: is it me, or is f7 group connecting out rather \
important?]
BL[829.489];W[lj]WL[1101.52];B[mj]
C[woldsom [2k\]: F7 is probably not worth rescueing]
BL[814.419];W[iq]
C[gogonuts [5d\]: zen19N is 2d in pretty slow games
DnFBlitz [1k\]: i don't see a reason why the 2d rank of Zen19N \
should not be correct.]
WL[1094.63];B[hq]BL[796.431];W[lg]
C[testtesttt [3d\]: pretty slow? how slow?
woldsom [2k\]: DnFBlitz, online play against a bot have many factors \
that shouldn't play into rank]
WL[1085.949];B[kj]BL[782.981];W[hj]WL[1071.692];B[jh]BL[769.243];W[ji]
C[woldsom [2k\]: also, a different playing style may throw a human \
off for a game or two, but then consistently lead to losses]
WL[1065.404]
;B[mg]
C[DarkAvatar [6d?\]: the only factor that matters is who wins :p
DarkAvatar [6d?\]: for a rank]
BL[755.533];W[pf]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: i hate to suggest it, but a good experiment would \
be to play a bot without the "bot sign" and see what rank it \
achieved on its own (i.e. when humans weren't warned that it \
was a bot that they were playing).]
WL[1048.67];B[ql]
C[woldsom [2k\]: DarkAvatar, but the result would be different depending \
on who and how often played it - even if the people had the same \
rank
DarkAvatar [6d?\]: and if a bot is able to beat 4ds then bot is \
4d under the chosen game setting]
BL[741.258];W[gl]
C[DnFBlitz [1k\]: you have to get that experiment through the ethics \
commision first!]
WL[1034.631];B[ij]BL[727.297];W[hi]
C[woldsom [2k\]: DarkAvatar, what if a bot is able to beat a 4d \
twice, then the 4d is able to consistently beat the bot after \
that?]
WL[1026.471];B[qg]
C[Cephi [7k?\]: It'd be interesting to see the difference when the \
players don't know who is a bot, but even if there is a big difference, \
I don't see why that would make the bot's rank illegitimate.
Hannoskaj [?\]: It will have to learn greeting and congratulating \
its opponent; 
DarkAvatar [6d?\]: then it depends if the 4d will play the bot \
anymore :)]
BL[713.466];W[qn]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: woldsom, that issue is relevant only if you see \
it in the game records.
DarkAvatar [6d?\]: but even on kgs you rarely play someone more \
than a few times]
WL[1012.449];B[qr]BL[699.489];W[oq]WL[1005.996]
;B[qf]
C[woldsom [2k\]: DarkAvatar - exactly
DarkAvatar [6d?\]: so if a bot beats 4d twice, then 4d beats the \
bot twice and then they dont play anymore then bot is 4d :)]
BL[685.932];W[di]WL[992.08];B[of]
C[DarkAvatar [6d?\]: i have no problem with that
woldsom [2k\]: Sure, it's 4D /under that method of ranking/ - \
I just think there's better methods of ranking]
BL[672.848];W[bf]
C[DarkAvatar [6d?\]: like what?]
WL[981.464];B[qb]
C[testtesttt [3d\]: Stonr grid breaking down]
BL[659.475];W[od]
C[woldsom [2k\]: like playing many games against each opponent]
WL[967.901];B[rp]
C[woldsom [2k\]: say, a best of 7 series each
Cephi [7k?\]: The ranking method is imperfect, but I still don't \
see why those imperfections would favor bots, or make their rankings \
any less legitimate than a human's ranking.]
BL[647.028];W[bd]WL[954.251];B[ce]BL[633.68];W[cd]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: the old deterministic algorithms, once you found \
a weakness, could be exploited over and over. i'm guessing this \
leads to what woldsom is worried about.]
WL[940.81]
;B[cf]BL[621.124];W[mb]
C[DarkAvatar [6d?\]: if the bot plays an average amount of 2 games \
with everybody - then you want to base his rank on its performance \
based on two games with everybody. It is best  to express its \
strenght to find it an adequate opponent. that's what ranks are \
for]
WL[933.804];B[mc]BL[608.127];W[ci]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: darkavatar: well said.
DarkAvatar [6d?\]: even if you would be able to beat the bot infinite \
times after two games :p
Cephi [7k?\]: I suppose one could program a bot to strategically \
accept and reject challenges so as to game the system, uurtamo, \
but does anyone think this is happening?]
WL[921.257];B[nb]
C[woldsom [2k\]: No gaming of the system is necessary]
BL[594.675];W[nc]WL[908.639];B[ma]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: as a functional tool for matching players together, \
the current ranking system of course works well. by definition.
woldsom [2k\]: it happens just by nature of the player]
BL[582.29];W[ob]
C[woldsom [2k\]: for instance, bots are marked as such - only people \
who want to play bots play them]
WL[896.253];B[dd]BL[570.644];W[dc]
C[woldsom [2k\]: that's a selection bias (might be that people who \
are willing to play bots also are less concerned about losing, \
and more interested in experimenting)]
WL[883.735]
;B[bi]BL[559.178];W[bj]WL[870.512];B[bh]
C[Cephi [7k?\]: Interesting, that could be so.]
BL[547.399];W[em]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: however, as i mentioned before, that is an issue \
that is possible, but for which if there is no evidence in the \
game records, is irrelevant.]
WL[858.755];B[cj]
C[DarkAvatar [6d?\]: yep, so the bot's rank is expressed against \
the ppl who play bots. so if somebody wants to play bots he is \
happy as the bots rank says everything he needs to know about \
the bots strenght :)
Zmej [4k\]: there is also an inverse bias ap layer BOtHater specifically \
studieid MC algorithm and wins more than he should ^)]
BL[535.157];W[bl]WL[847.664];B[bn]
C[woldsom [2k\]: Guess we just have to connect a bot illegitimately \
as a real player. playing automatches - and compare to how the \
same bot does on a marked account]
BL[523.24];W[dj]
C[woldsom [2k\]: indeed Zmej]
WL[840.809];B[ck]BL[511.11];W[bk]
C[woldsom [2k\]: though I'm not sure about the "more than he should"
gogonuts [5d\]: b captured
uurtamo [12k?\]: woldsom: my guess is that it would come out just \
about exactly the same.
maproomad [-\]: maybe we could have a "Turing tournament", with \
about four strong bots, four 3-dans, new names randomly assigned, \
and no chatting]
WL[829.874]
;B[ek]
C[Cephi [7k?\]: although, woldsom, the same could be said of certain \
human players, like children.  I suspect people play differently \
against them.  Perhaps most players play differently against \
female opponents -- in chess there is good empirical data supporting \
this.  I don't think that means women's chess rankings are illegitimate.
woldsom [2k\]: if he wins consistently, doesn't that /reall/ mean \
he's better?
woldsom [2k\]: u
gogonuts [5d\]: e9 doesnt help]
BL[499.042];W[fk]
C[DnFBlitz [1k\]: fun idea, maproomad!]
WL[818.974];B[mn]
C[maproomad [-\]: and let the human players and the kibitzers try \
to guess which are the bots
DnFBlitz [1k\]: and in the end the players have to guess the bots \
:)]
BL[487.94];W[no]WL[810.422];B[mo]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: maproom - great idea.]
BL[477.492];W[mp]
C[woldsom [2k\]: maproomad - I actually think the bots are distinguishable \
just by style - more tenuki, for instance]
WL[804.001];B[ad]BL[466.905];W[bc]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: sum could pass for a bot.
DarkAvatar [6d?\]: its easy to recognize bot playing :)
Zmej [4k\]: "more tahn he should" = if he didn't studied the bot"s \
way of playing
woldsom [2k\]: but it would be interesting
maproomad [-\]: though bots would be easy to guess from their \
dame-filling.  Aya is very easy there  :)]
WL[797.57];B[oa]BL[456.337];W[pa]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: prize for person who correctly guesses all players \
the earliest.]
WL[785.787]
;B[lb]BL[445.118];W[rb]WL[779.888];B[rc]
C[potkuri: are there any regular human vs. computer tournaments \
of any kind?
uurtamo [12k?\]: i.e. you get all 6 correct, and weighted sum \
of moves where you made your claim was lowest. :)]
BL[434.019];W[sc]WL[774.151];B[ra]BL[422.754];W[sb]WL[768.438];B[nn]BL[411.468];W[bg]
C[woldsom [2k\]: potkuri, there was one mentioned on the computer-go \
mailing list a bit back - allan turing tournament or something \
like that]
WL[762.751];B[na]
C[maproomad [-\]: potkuri:  nothing regular since the "$1,000,000 \
prize" ended]
BL[401.152];W[qq]WL[756.913]
;B[rq]BL[390.968];W[pr]
C[DarkAvatar [6d?\]: someone won the price?
DarkAvatar [6d?\]: or it just ended?]
WL[750.897];B[dh]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: i hate to suggest it, but was there evidence \
that the prize was cancelled because computers were getting better?]
BL[380.989];W[ej]
C[woldsom [2k\]: it allows both humans, computers, and computer-assisted \
humans, apparently]
WL[745.243];B[qo]BL[370.648];W[rr]WL[739.417];B[po]BL[360.475];W[oo]WL[733.733];B[df]
C[maproomad [-\]: certainly not becasue computers were getting better]
BL[350.157];W[eg]WL[728.075]
;B[ee]BL[339.796];W[ed]
C[maproomad [-\]: conceivably because cash prizes were inducing \
computers to cheat]
WL[722.094];B[bb]
C[DarkAvatar [6d?\]: zen is strange in beggining but quite strong \
now
gogonuts [5d\]: zen wont let the top left survive
qQQp [-\]: Ing prize was cancelled because Mr Ing died. And the \
heirs prefered cashing the $$]
BL[330.788];W[cb]WL[716];B[ac]BL[321.892];W[cc]WL[709.75];B[on]
C[maproomad [-\]: it continues for several years after he died
uurtamo [12k?\]: ah, ok, thanks qqqp & maproom.]
BL[313.135];W[ai]WL[704.069];B[sr]BL[303.809];W[qs]
C[qQQp [-\]: Yes the set yearr 2000 as a limit]
WL[698.485]
;B[np]BL[294.403];W[op]
C[qQQp [-\]: Knowning they wouldn't lose.]
WL[692.921];B[lp]BL[284.968];W[mq]WL[687.337];B[ab]BL[275.548];W[ba]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: wow, b is just falling apart.]
WL[681.807];B[hp]BL[266.055];W[lo]WL[676.332];B[hr]
C[testtesttt [3d\]: b falling apart for a while already]
BL[258.551];W[ir]WL[670.816]
;B[fl]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: right, but it's accelerating.]
BL[251.067];W[el]WL[665.343];B[lq]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: i mean f8 compared with what led to that group \
being captured.]
BL[243.534];W[am]WL[657.722];B[mr]BL[235.157];W[nq]WL[652.312];B[kr]BL[227.565];W[ks]WL[646.926];B[js]BL[219.948];W[jr]WL[641.524]
;B[se]BL[212.352];W[re]WL[636.185];B[ls]BL[204.684];W[is]WL[630.842];B[nr]BL[198.031];W[ns]WL[625.396];B[jb]BL[189.847];W[ha]WL[619.983];B[ks]BL[182.882];W[os]
C[Meepy [-\]: L1 XD]
WL[614.68]
;B[co]BL[176.191];W[rf]
C[woldsom [2k\]: yeah silly]
WL[609.45];B[or]
C[Omniscient [2k\]: b feels like only 4k]
BL[169.411];W[ps]WL[604.349];B[rs]BL[162.518];W[ss]WL[599.142];B[sd]
C[testtesttt [3d\]: opening 100 moves are ok]
BL[155.724];W[sf]WL[593.924];B[rs]
C[uurtamo [12k?\]: that's pretty good, really.]
BL[149.941];W[qr]WL[588.468]
;B[qp]BL[144.397];W[gm]WL[582.787];B[hn]BL[138.077];W[ss]WL[577.483];B[pb]
C[testtesttt [3d\]: so if someone make stoneGrid/Zen hybrid system \
where SG play the first 100 and Zen took over]
BL[132.378];W[qa]WL[572.369];B[rs]
C[testtesttt [3d\]: this game is done 100 moves ago]
BL[126.451];W[hs]WL[567.277];B[sq]
C[DarkAvatar [6d?\]: so?]
BL[120.53];W[ss]WL[560.468]
;B[ii]
C[DarkAvatar [6d?\]: why are you still watching then? :)]
BL[114.389];W[ms]
C[gogonuts [5d\]: big ko suddenly]
WL[555.419];B[ih]BL[108.416];W[hg]WL[550.65];B[ig]BL[102.207];W[if]WL[545.88];B[rh]
C[gogonuts [5d\]: but w was too solid, no big threats]
BL[95.975];W[sh]WL[541.071];B[gf]BL[90.782];W[gg]WL[536.341]
;B[eh]BL[85.512];W[ah]WL[531.566];B[fg]
C[testtesttt [3d\]: yeah zen is solid when it has decent margin]
BL[80.286];W[fh]WL[526.746];B[ag]BL[75.101];W[af]
C[testtesttt [3d\]: it trade some margin in for extra security]
WL[521.966];B[ae]
C[woldsom [2k\]: f13 is an"I resign" move]
BL[69.883];W[ag]WL[517.117];B[aj]BL[64.731];W[ak]WL[512.136]
;B[rc]BL[59.714];W[si]WL[507.564];B[nd]
C[Omniscient [2k\]: is this a computer tournament?]
BL[55.284];W[ne]
C[woldsom [2k\]: yes]
WL[502.884];B[cg]BL[48.545];W[aj]
C[testtesttt [3d\]: SG has an interesting algorithm 
Omniscient [2k\]: tenukis too much
yuuki [5k\]: smartrobot could give them a lesson in simul
testtesttt [3d\]: yeah the algorithm doesn't work well after middle \
games, but great opening 
joxn [-\]: what does StoneGrid do differently?
testtesttt [3d\]: how do i know XD
testtesttt [3d\]: i don't know the code
joxn [-\]: then you can't say the algorithm is interesting :-) \
Just that the results are.
testtesttt [3d\]: of course you can]
WL[498.293])
