(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]KM[7.50]TM[1800]
PW[pachi2]PB[EricaBot]BR[3d]DT[2011-01-10]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[pachi2 [-\]: GTP Engine for pachi2 (white): Pachi Distributed Engine version 6.99 (Chihaku-devel): I'm playing the distributed engine. When I'm losing, I will resign, if I think I win, I play until you pass. Anyone can send me 'winrate' in private chat to get my assessment of the position.
EricaBot [3d\]: GTP Engine for EricaBot (black): Erica version 1
]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pq]BL[1782.517]
;W[hc]WL[1777.644]
;B[dd]BL[1765.301]
;W[mk]WL[1752.767]C[ajahuang [6d\]: nice N9
]
;B[dp]BL[1748.046]C[jlg [?\]: pachi feels cosmic today
ajahuang [6d\]: ya
ajahuang [6d\]: cosmic style
]
;W[co]WL[1728.405]C[ajahuang [6d\]: I like this style
ajahuang [6d\]: unlimited style go
]
;B[pd]BL[1730.756]C[jlg [?\]: it's strange it didn't have this style yesterday
ajahuang [6d\]: my teacher usually said, any style that can win is good
pasky [?\]: ^^
]
;W[do]WL[1705.326]
;B[ep]BL[1713.368]
;W[nc]WL[1681.894]C[ajahuang [6d\]: my teacher is a 8p pro in Taiwan
]
;B[cp]BL[1696.006]
;W[qh]WL[1667.021]C[ajahuang [6d\]: the joseki are all gone
]
;B[qf]BL[1678.654]C[jlg [?\]: how many stones can you give to EricBot, Aja?
ajahuang [6d\]: pachi played very good joseki yesterday
ajahuang [6d\]: maybe 5 or 6
]
;W[fn]WL[1643.12]
;B[kd]BL[1661.14]
;W[nf]WL[1630.91]
;B[og]BL[1643.615]
;W[ng]WL[1618.653]
;B[oh]BL[1626.028]C[ajahuang [6d\]: so pachi is probably 100 elo stronger today
]
;W[kf]WL[1597.894]
;B[of]BL[1606.696]C[jlg [?\]: It was configured correctly only at the 4th round yesterday
pasky [?\]: i think i know why pachi played joseki yesterday - the kogo-based priors were very strong because there was so few playouts done in fact
jlg [?\]: more than 100 elo with correct config
]
;W[pc]WL[1574.71]
;B[qc]BL[1589]C[pasky [?\]: yes i think this is definitely much more than 100 elo
ajahuang [6d\]: oh
jlg [?\]: it would have given a hard time to Zen otherwise
]
;W[od]WL[1552.397]C[pasky [?\]: my feeling was that my local pachi on 2-core amd was giving much more reasonable results than what the clustered version played
]
;B[pb]BL[1571.237]
;W[pe]WL[1550.034]
;B[oc]BL[1553.495]C[ajahuang [6d\]: what do you mean?
]
;W[qd]WL[1547.715]
;B[pc]BL[1535.673]C[pasky [?\]: imho clustered version with very weak nodes was performing much worse than normal pachi with usual hardware
]
;W[oe]WL[1536.413]
;B[qe]BL[1517.78]C[jlg [?\]: that's correct pasky
]
;W[pf]WL[1534.117]
;B[nb]BL[1499.842]C[ajahuang [6d\]: but still more than 100 elo?
]
;W[qg]WL[1521.891]
;B[cg]BL[1487.676]
;W[mc]WL[1500.609]C[jlg [?\]: 100 elo is doubling the hardware. with the correct config pachi has 20 times the hardware
]
;B[mb]BL[1469.482]
;W[lc]WL[1489.017]C[pasky [?\]: but 2000 elo stronger is unliekyl ;-)
ajahuang [6d\]: oh
pasky [?\]: eh sorry
ajahuang [6d\]: 2000 elo???
]
;B[lb]BL[1451.282]C[pasky [?\]: time for coffee and logarithms
ajahuang [6d\]: :P
]
;W[kc]WL[1477.121]C[jlg [?\]: no 20 times should be a bit more than 400 elo
jlg [?\]: (20 > 16)
ajahuang [6d\]: so pachi2 should be 3d or 4d now
]
;B[kb]BL[1433.052]C[ajahuang [6d\]: reasonable
Rock2 [2d\]: no diminishing returns?
]
;W[ck]WL[1454.361]C[jlg [?\]: It depends on which time settings I think. Zen is stronger against humans at short time settings.
]
;B[jc]BL[1414.627]C[pasky [?\]: rock2: making mcts scale over many machines is not easy - jlg spent huge effort doing that
]
;W[dh]WL[1432.81]C[ajahuang [6d\]: Rock2, jlg is the famous guy I told you last time
]
;B[dg]BL[1396.177]
;W[eg]WL[1421.386]C[Rock2 [2d\]: yet he expects 400 Elo from 20x speed-up?
Rock2 [2d\]: that's a lot
]
;B[eh]BL[1377.614]C[Rock2 [2d\]: near-linear
jlg [?\]: I don't expect, I measure
Rock2 [2d\]: wow
Rock2 [2d\]: so, no diminishing returns so far
]
;W[ch]WL[1399.547]C[Rock2 [2d\]: that was my question
]
;B[bh]BL[1359.051]C[jlg [?\]: no diminishing returns on one machine. Strongly diminishing on many machines
]
;W[bi]WL[1388.641]C[Rock2 [2d\]: on one machine, that's what I wanted to know
]
;B[bg]BL[1340.487]C[jlg [?\]: Fuego scales up to 112 cores on one machine
ajahuang [6d\]: ya
jlg [?\]: I have only 24 core machines :-(
]
;W[ef]WL[1368.288]C[ajahuang [6d\]: I should borrow it from you :(
]
;B[ei]BL[1321.808]
;W[dj]WL[1356.787]C[jlg [?\]: You give me the secret for Erica's strength on so little hardware, and I give you the machine :-)
pasky [?\]: i have access to one 64-core machine, but it's stupid ia64 and permanently overloaded :(
ajahuang [6d\]: haha
]
;B[he]BL[1303.007]C[ajahuang [6d\]: well, Fuego said to me the same thing :(
]
;W[gg]WL[1345.442]C[pasky [?\]: hehe
ajahuang [6d\]: Erica's source for the 112 cores machine :(
]
;B[hg]BL[1284.183]
;W[hh]WL[1333.838]
;B[ig]BL[1265.222]C[ajahuang [6d\]: Erica is losing
ajahuang [6d\]: pachi is indeed very strong
ajahuang [6d\]: 45%
]
;W[ce]WL[1313.147]C[pasky [?\]:  [12:35\] pachi2: In 7181521 playouts at 64 machines, white C15 can win with 61.43% probability.
jlg [?\]: 61% for pachi
ajahuang [6d\]: yep, same with my assessment
]
;B[de]BL[1246.058]
;W[df]WL[1302.329]
;B[cf]BL[1226.966]
;W[be]WL[1281.581]C[ajahuang [6d\]: good
]
;B[gh]BL[1207.667]
;W[fg]WL[1262.629]
;B[fe]BL[1188.355]
;W[fh]WL[1251.522]
;B[gi]BL[1168.942]
;W[fi]WL[1240.653]
;B[cd]BL[1149.512]
;W[gq]WL[1220.264]
;B[gp]BL[1129.86]C[ajahuang [6d\]: pachi is much stronger than yesterday
jlg [?\]: I told you 4 stones stronger
]
;W[hp]WL[1202.53]C[ajahuang [6d\]: 20 stones stronger...
]
;B[go]BL[1110.09]C[ajahuang [6d\]: according to pasky :)
pasky [?\]: log_2 20 ;)
Rock2 [2d\]: BTW how many Elo points is a stone worth?
jlg [?\]: one stone = 100 elo
]
;W[io]WL[1170.283]C[jlg [?\]: I can give you the exact number if you want but it's close to 100
]
;B[pj]BL[1090.06]C[Rock2 [2d\]: this will be enough, thanks :)
ThePok [?\]: how many hardwaredoubles du 9p?
ThePok [?\]: to
]
;W[rd]WL[1140.693]C[ajahuang [6d\]: pachi is unbeatable today
ajahuang [6d\]: OH
ajahuang [6d\]: surprising
]
;B[ql]BL[1070.131]C[ajahuang [6d\]: very reasonable moves
]
;W[no]WL[1109.969]C[jlg [?\]: you see that N9 fuseki was good :-)
]
;B[mq]BL[1050]C[ajahuang [6d\]: yes now I see that
ajahuang [6d\]: it was beyond my level
]
;W[mp]WL[1093.374]C[ajahuang [6d\]: :p
ThePok [?\]: scary
]
;B[lq]BL[1030.226]
;W[pp]WL[1070.501]
;B[op]BL[1010.856]
;W[po]WL[1055.143]C[jlg [?\]: pachi is looking at P12...
]
;B[qq]BL[991.971]C[ajahuang [6d\]: the right group is very dangerous
]
;W[pm]WL[1027.88]
;B[pl]BL[973.322]
;W[lp]WL[1001.023]
;B[nl]BL[960.914]
;W[ml]WL[976.587]
;B[mi]BL[942.805]
;W[ki]WL[962.158]
;B[ji]BL[925.143]
;W[jj]WL[937.586]
;B[rf]BL[913.339]
;W[rg]WL[923.433]
;B[nk]BL[896.225]
;W[nm]WL[900.645]C[ajahuang [6d\]: pachi beautifully used all the stones
]
;B[bd]BL[879.433]
;W[jh]WL[878.505]
;B[eo]BL[862.836]C[pasky [?\]: this game is too high-level for me
ajahuang [6d\]: power
]
;W[en]WL[859.314]C[ajahuang [6d\]: pachi is a bit like Zen
ajahuang [6d\]: in this game
]
;B[ih]BL[846.615]
;W[ii]WL[838.288]C[ajahuang [6d\]: using strength to attack and get territory naturally
]
;B[hi]BL[830.681]
;W[qj]WL[818.266]C[ajahuang [6d\]: still 45%
jlg [?\]: 67%
]
;B[rj]BL[815.042]C[ajahuang [6d\]: yes I think w is leading
]
;W[qk]WL[798.858]
;B[rk]BL[799.725]C[pasky [?\]: k16 should be pretty big
]
;W[qi]WL[781.738]C[ajahuang [6d\]: E2 is bigger
]
;B[ro]BL[784.657]
;W[pk]WL[771.014]
;B[om]BL[774.68]C[pasky [?\]: hmm, right
]
;W[on]WL[760.911]
;B[ol]BL[760.113]
;W[qn]WL[743.29]C[ajahuang [6d\]: oh, this is bad move
]
;B[rn]BL[745.726]C[pasky [?\]: why?
ajahuang [6d\]: S4
]
;W[nq]WL[725.708]C[ajahuang [6d\]: can cut black
pasky [?\]: hmm i thought it cannot
pasky [?\]: *rereads*
]
;B[nr]BL[731.53]C[ajahuang [6d\]: R6 was helping black
ajahuang [6d\]: R6 gained nothing
ajahuang [6d\]: right?
]
;W[id]WL[708.418]C[jlg [?\]: yes r6 was bad 
pasky [?\]: hmm, you are right, but s4-r6? white has cohice to connect r4 or q6
]
;B[jd]BL[717.881]C[ajahuang [6d\]: 48%
]
;W[ie]WL[698.315]C[ajahuang [6d\]: raise a little bit
]
;B[je]BL[704.474]C[ajahuang [6d\]: yes
pasky [?\]:  [12:55\] pachi2: In 12991918 playouts at 64 machines, white J15 can win with 66.86% probability.
ajahuang [6d\]: but white connect R4 is very big
]
;W[jf]WL[688.717]C[ajahuang [6d\]: can jump into the corner
pasky [?\]: yes, you are right
]
;B[if]BL[691.356]
;W[gj]WL[672.752]C[pasky [?\]: i think k16 was much better than j16
]
;B[hj]BL[678.26]C[ajahuang [6d\]: pachi is using it to close the center
ajahuang [6d\]: good idea
]
;W[nj]WL[656.564]
;B[gk]BL[665.511]C[pasky [?\]: pachi's winrate slightly down too
pasky [?\]: exchange?
]
;W[fj]WL[640.172]C[pasky [?\]: hmm, would seem to me that p10 is bigger than f10
]
;B[dn]BL[653.101]
;W[hk]WL[625.166]C[ajahuang [6d\]: great
]
;B[ik]BL[640.851]
;W[hl]WL[616.87]C[ajahuang [6d\]: using J15 stones to the maximum
]
;B[cn]BL[632.725]
;W[ee]WL[608.275]C[pasky [?\]: heh :)
]
;B[ed]BL[620.754]C[gogonuts [5d\]: good move at c6
]
;W[rm]WL[600.566]C[ajahuang [6d\]: J10 very big, gogo
ajahuang [6d\]: oh, this is bad move again
]
;B[qm]BL[609.197]C[ajahuang [6d\]: wa
]
;W[rl]WL[592.836]C[ajahuang [6d\]: R8?
gogonuts [5d\]: wow
]
;B[pn]BL[597.91]C[ajahuang [6d\]: can't believe
gogonuts [5d\]: one-sided ko for little
]
;W[ge]WL[580.564]
;B[kg]BL[586.491]C[ajahuang [6d\]: Erica is crazy
]
;W[gd]WL[567.281]C[jlg [?\]: 71%
]
;B[jg]BL[575.509]
;W[pm]WL[559.762]C[ajahuang [6d\]: 43%
]
;B[gf]BL[564.791]
;W[ok]WL[552.62]
;B[fd]BL[554.385]
;W[ij]WL[545.045]C[ajahuang [6d\]: this game is decided
]
;B[lh]BL[544.144]C[ajahuang [6d\]: can't see chance for black now
]
;W[mr]WL[533.662]C[jlg [?\]: I told you it was stronger :-)
gogonuts [5d\]: r7 was a really bad decision
]
;B[oq]BL[533.961]
;W[kq]WL[531.527]C[ajahuang [6d\]: yes indeed
]
;B[lr]BL[524.076]
;W[kr]WL[520.021]
;B[np]BL[514.281]
;W[hh]WL[512.365]
;B[in]BL[504.664]
;W[nh]WL[505.109]
;B[ho]BL[495.244]
;W[ip]WL[497.447]
;B[ni]BL[485.965]
;W[oi]WL[485.819]
;B[fq]BL[476.812]
;W[bo]WL[474.969]
;B[bn]BL[467.849]
;W[gr]WL[462.452]
;B[rc]BL[461.784]
;W[fo]WL[455.326]C[sheeryjay [1k?\]: I've never seen pachi play this strongly ... distribution really helped
]
;B[fp]BL[453.148]
;W[hn]WL[453.197]
;B[sd]BL[444.719]C[ajahuang [6d\]: much stronger than yesterday
]
;W[ff]WL[442.341]
;B[hf]BL[436.494]
;W[lf]WL[431.967]
;B[hd]BL[428.269]
;W[ic]WL[421.657]
;B[gc]BL[420.267]
;W[ld]WL[419.546]
;B[jb]BL[412.531]C[pasky [?\]: aja, would you also like trying pachi2 in person like yesterday?
]
;W[lg]WL[409.829]
;B[gn]BL[403.729]
;W[hm]WL[403.099]
;B[hq]BL[398.67]C[sheeryjay [1k?\]: wicked, it finds moves that I'd have never guessed and the actually seem to work .. though G6 should have been white move imho :(
ajahuang [6d\]: OK, after this game
]
;W[fr]WL[392.659]C[jlg [?\]: which handicap?
]
;B[er]BL[391.185]C[ajahuang [6d\]: Erica migh resign noon
ajahuang [6d\]: no handicap
]
;W[hr]WL[386.231]
;B[kh]BL[383.93]C[jlg [?\]: you're playing it safe :-)
]
;W[ah]WL[378.379]C[ajahuang [6d\]: hehe
]
;B[af]BL[378.999]
;W[es]WL[370.921]C[jlg [?\]: which time settings?
]
;B[ds]BL[371.981]C[sheeryjay [1k?\]: please, just don't lose .. would be sad day for humanity :-)
gogonuts [5d\]: hes interested in the fuseki capabilities :-)
ajahuang [6d\]: same with yesterday
]
;W[dm]WL[360.692]
;B[cm]BL[364.961]
;W[fs]WL[354.208]
;B[fl]BL[358.16]C[jlg [?\]: which were what? I don't remember
]
;W[dl]WL[347.732]
;B[em]BL[351.518]
;W[dr]WL[346.374]C[ajahuang [6d\]: 20 mins?
ajahuang [6d\]: or 25?
]
;B[le]BL[345.072]
;W[me]WL[339.887]C[jlg [?\]: it's up to you
]
;B[cr]BL[338.645]C[ajahuang [6d\]: maybe 25 mins
]
;W[cs]WL[332.214]C[jlg [?\]: byo yomi?
]
;B[ci]BL[332.323]
;W[di]WL[325.077]C[gogonuts [5d\]: this game is pretty close after all ...
]
;B[dq]BL[326.304]C[ajahuang [6d\]: both fine
]
;W[eq]WL[318.585]
;B[lj]BL[320.271]
;W[br]WL[312.752]
;B[bq]BL[314.34]
;W[cq]WL[310.835]
;B[bp]BL[308.469]
;W[rp]WL[309.293]C[ajahuang [6d\]: Erica will resign soon
jlg [?\]: gogonuts: pachi is just playing safe now
]
;B[qp]BL[302.724]
;W[li]WL[307.477]C[jlg [?\]: it is not trying to maximise score
]
;B[mh]BL[297.114]
;W[mj]WL[306.212]
;B[ji]BL[291.604]C[gogonuts [5d\]: and m10 didnt even work ...
]
;W[kj]WL[304.685]
;B[mg]BL[286.346]
;W[mf]WL[302.792]
;B[ke]BL[281.14]
;W[nd]WL[301.416]
;B[jq]BL[275.979]
;W[jr]WL[300.13]
;B[kp]BL[270.949]
;W[iq]WL[298.468]
;B[sm]BL[265.98]
;W[qo]WL[297.264]
;B[sp]BL[261.083]
;W[sn]WL[295.903]
;B[so]BL[256.182]
;W[rq]WL[293.995]C[ajahuang [6d\]: resign at 20%
gogonuts [5d\]: erica lost a couple of points trying to catch up the last needed points
]
;B[rr]BL[251.433]
;W[sl]WL[292.313]
;B[mo]BL[246.814]
;W[lo]WL[289.236]
;B[ln]BL[242.339]
;W[ko]WL[287.863]
;B[oo]BL[237.842]
;W[nn]WL[286.02]
;B[bl]BL[233.562]
;W[bk]WL[284.236]
;B[sg]BL[226.768]C[sheeryjay [1k?\]: wonder how MC/UCT would play when it could sensibly try to maximize score or just plain take a slightly less safe move but with more point gain
]
;W[sh]WL[282.899]
;B[ks]BL[222.574]
;W[js]WL[281.554]
;B[hi]BL[218.567]
;W[gm]WL[279.94]
;B[fm]BL[214.595]C[gogonuts [5d\]: that has been tried
]
;W[sf]WL[278.612]
;B[re]BL[210.76]
;W[gh]WL[277.016]C[ajahuang [6d\]: I think we should use that information
ajahuang [6d\]: thanks for the game
ajahuang [6d\]: congrats
jlg [?\]: thanks for the game!
pasky [?\]: sheeryjay: see http://pasky.or.cz/~pasky/go/dynkomi.pdf ;)
jlg [?\]: 25mn SD for you?
ajahuang [6d\]: pachi might have chance to beat Zen
ajahuang [6d\]: OK
ajahuang [6d\]: set please
gogonuts [5d\]: i think the score should be used for extreme winrates
jlg [?\]: so I use "wait"
sheeryjay [1k?\]: pasky, I don't mean dynamic komi, that is imho quite obvious effort :)
pasky [?\]: sheeryjay: but that's exactly it :)
gogonuts [5d\]: win/loss is best, but its useless if all moves win or all moves lose
sheeryjay [1k?\]: Ok, then I go read it :D
ajahuang [6d\]: ?
pasky [?\]: gogonuts: my approach is to avoid that situation
ajahuang [6d\]: I can't see pachi2
pasky [?\]: ajahuang: it got snatched by ericabot again
gogonuts [5d\]: instead of win/loss you could use a sigmoid function
ajahuang [6d\]: yes I just disc it
gogonuts [5d\]: and set its parameters to be pratically win/loss normaly
pasky [?\]: gogonuts: we do something like that
pasky [?\]: gogonuts: we do not use 0 and 1 but 0..0.04 and 0.96..1
gogonuts [5d\]: and change the parameters when the winrate becomes extreme
pasky [?\]: gogonuts: the shape is thus similar to sigmoid :)
pasky [?\]: gogonuts: it's slight benefit but the effect is small
ajahuang [6d\]: I am waiting for pachi2 now
gogonuts [5d\]: my thinking is that its better to optimize on *anything* rather then on a uniform result
pasky [?\]: gogonuts: i don't understand
gogonuts [5d\]: in extreme positions you still get distribution differences for score
gogonuts [5d\]: even if its all win or all loss
gogonuts [5d\]: but normaly win/loss is better
jlg [?\]: pachi2 is restarting. Sorry it takes a bit of time.
gogonuts [5d\]: so use score more if win/loss is more extreme
ajahuang [6d\]: ok
pasky [?\]: gogonuts: yes, but if you use dynamic komi, exactly what are you doing is turning these differences in score distribution to differences in win/loss
gogonuts [5d\]: dyn. komi is different
gogonuts [5d\]: because it sets a different goal
pasky [?\]: gogonuts: but that's what you implicitly do when you say "use score differences" too
pasky [?\]: isn't it?
jlg [?\]: go to the game with aja now
pasky [?\]: yes :)
sheeryjay [1k?\]: perhaps gogonuts means, just play out the playouts with normal komi and then try to see which of the few most safe moves gives the best score?
])
